Episode 25: Food Justice Transcript

March 7, 2022
[00:00:00.730] - Ashley Munro

All right. Jackie, thank you so much for being on the show today. If you could take a moment and tell our audience who you are and what it is you do here on campus or what you do professionally.


[00:00:14.270] - Jackie Rybin

Well, thank you so much, Ashley, for having me on nutrition navigators. It's quite the honor. I am a Wildcat for life. I've been here for two undergrads now. And now I'm currently getting my master's degree in agriculture, education, technology and innovation. I am an alumni of the public health program as well as nutritional Sciences. So I have a lot of love for nutritional science with the U of a community and a little bit about me. I usually her pronouns. I'm originally from the Midwest, but a little bit I grew up in Phoenix as well. So I really love the desert, I love the heat. But I did grow up in Nebraska around a lot of farming. My grandma still has a farm in Nebraska. And there are certain things when you're a kid that you don't quite enjoy that much, but then you appreciate as an adult. So I think farming and gardening and agriculture is one of those things for me. And I've always been a y kid. So I was always like, why is this? Why is that? And I just have continued that on into adulthood. And also my passion, too, for helping folks and kind of being one with community and so really empowering folks to have their voices heard.


[00:01:42.020] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. So that's a little bit about me. I'm super passionate about what I do. And I think that makes the work, the studying, so much more easier and smoother to do when you really love the material and you're really in it.


[00:01:57.100] - Ashley Munro

Yeah, that's really true. You're that why you're a why person. I think that speaks to wanting to know the root of issues and things. I think that sometimes we're all the fun exploration of it.


[00:02:09.540] - Jackie Rybin

So that's really cool.


[00:02:12.030] - Ashley Munro

Thank you for being our expert today on this topic. We're going to talk a little bit about food justice and food sovereignty, for folks that don't know what that is. Do you think you could explain what food justice? Well, I guess three terms get thrown around sometimes. Food justice, food sovereignty, and then our food apartheid. Can you maybe define those words?


[00:02:32.710] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. And I get that question a lot, too. What is that? First, I kind of wanted to give my positionality of who I am. I think that's very important to coming into these spaces to identify kind of my positionality of who I am, how I grew up, certain biases that I have absorbed living in white dominated communities in the United States. And so I am a white woman, and I am working in solidarity right now with communities. How I am involving myself in those spaces very actively to unlearn those certain biases and kind of cultural norms and stereotypes that we develop as human beings. But that is really needed, that vulnerability to combat the racism, also white and white supremacy culture that we see today in nutrition, our food system specifically in the United States.


[00:03:37.150] - Ashley Munro

Yeah. And I love that you bring up the discussion of positionality. First off, if people don't yet realize like nutrition and food is inherently political. And so I think that that's always an interesting moment that folks have like, oh my gosh, this is a nutrition podcast. Why are we talking about some of these other words that come into like food policy and food politics, but it's inherently is because of the social kind of environment we live in and our political system. So I think that positionality is a really important piece. And I feel like I have a very similar discussion a lot of time when I show up in spaces about weight inclusion and about weight stigma and about the lived experience of folks in larger bodies because I'm Cisgendered as well and I hold other privileges, including size privilege myself. And so I love the piece of like standing in solidarity, being an ally and kind of understanding that people lived experiences aren't the same. It sounds like your piece of this too is center and elevate voices that we should be elevating. Right. Because it's not necessarily my voice, but it needs to be elevated.


[00:04:55.730] - Ashley Munro

It's the voices of those people who had these different lived experiences that speak to some of these injustices or marginalizations and those kinds of things.


[00:05:05.730] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. I think that's like super important, Ashley, to talk about, because I think there's also a fine line, too, of even though we are in positions of privilege and power to not shy away from those conversations but being accepting of kind of the trauma that has and then justices that have occurred in our systems and our food systems. And I think getting out of your comfort zone and getting into that challenge zone and that's where we really learn about other folks dismantling those stereotypes we have of certain populations and our food habits because we're human beings, we're all very complex. And I think it does a disservice to title certain populations a certain way. But I think it's our job to work in solitary to uplift those voices. But again, do that learning ourselves and not put that on certain underrepresented populations because that gets into a tokenism. So that's, well, you're the set person. No, this is our responsibility to do this on learning.


[00:06:17.490] - Ashley Munro

I love that so much. I think that's really important. And I guess how does that tie in this discussion of food? We have this positionality. We have this understanding that it's uncomfortable sometimes but important to unlearn things when it comes to injustices around our food system. And actually just in general, I think that's just good food for thought. What does it mean to position ourselves to want food justice or for communities to want food justice?


[00:06:57.250] - Jackie Rybin

Food justice. It really takes looking at the whole broad system, again, put your 'why kid' hat on. And ask why are certain folks not able to access healthy, culturally relevant foods? Why is this what it is today? There's a lot of policies that have shaped communities. So if we look at communities that might be struggling with food insecurity and not having that access to fresh, culturally relevant food. I'm going to break it out in system. We have our environment. Right. So that's a broader thing, too of you need land to farm, you need water, you need certain capital. Right. Like funding money to get into those systems where you have that autonomy to create, to grow your own cultural relevant food. So that's one part of it. And also it's really important to look at our broader food system, too, and looking at how these systems have benefited more privileged populations and communities. Food desert is kind of a term on the way out versus food apartheid because we're getting new knowledge kind of you do better once you know better.


[00:08:25.180] - Jackie Rybin

That is the quote from oh.


[00:08:28.900] - Ashley Munro

Yeah, I know that one. That's Maya Angelo.


[00:08:32.500] - Jackie Rybin

There we go, yeah. And that is very relevant to this conversation again. So kind of going back to food justice, it's really a movement and it is really led to be community led. So not me as a white cis- woman going into community that, well, your food insecure. And I think I know best for what you need in your community. No, it's really uplifting and empowering those voices of community members because they have a lot of knowledge and power and what they need and what they desire. Those voices need to be at the forefront of these conversations of what's food justice and what does that mean for individual communities that have traditionally been underserved by our whole system, the United States a government with colonialism, we have to look really at those dark periods of history which are still prevalent today. But that is so important to do that kind of work; to know why are things the way they are and what can we do to move forward to really empower and really seek that culturally relevant food as a human right for everyone. So that's a broader kind of definition of food justice.


[00:09:49.740] - Jackie Rybin

And I know a lot of different folks have different definitions of it.


[00:09:53.870] - Ashley Munro

No, I like that because I think it reminds me anytime we talk about serving communities from a public health standpoint, the biggest piece of that is going into the community and centering their voice and learning from them what is really needed and what is known and how that they can be supported and supporting themselves and not like we're going to go in and kind of do any fixing of any kind. So I think that's important. And then I guess you mentioned the word food desert is kind of on the way out, and there's other terminology that is used, and I know there's some reason behind that. Could you share why maybe the word food desert, which I think in nutrition gets talked a lot about from a food and security standpoint. And I've even heard folks say the Uava itself is in a food desert because the proximity to grocery stores and things like that. So, yeah, can you explain why is it on the way out and what is the alternative?


[00:10:53.490] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. So I kind of want to unpack the words. I love unpacking words kind of a puzzle. But food desert, so I honestly think it's kind of insulting. We live in desert. We live in Tucson. But when you think of the desert here in Tucson, do you think I don't think of kind of a tumbleweed blowing across the road. There's no life. There's a lot of negative connotations with desert if you think about it. If you're not from Arizona, you're not from the Tucson Phoenix area. The general kind of public, too. And there's another word with that, too that gets turned around, food swamps. So that's another word. Also a food Mirage, too. So I kind of just want to mention those when you think of those words. I think just asking the listeners that are listening to those, like, what do you think of those? What are your own implicit biases when you think of that terminology that gets turned around, especially nutritional Sciences or just in public health, the whole kind of spectrum and kind of looking at your internal stereotypes and biases of certain people who do you think lives in these areas.


[00:12:05.610] - Jackie Rybin

So I think that is important to kind of unpack to individually because you'll be pleasantly surprised that what kind of what you have the story in your head. It can't match the complexities of humans and how much power and resiliency and self determination there are in these communities that we label as food desert, food swamps, food Mirages, because as outsiders think, well, we're in our society, we're in academia, we're really making it right. We have all this knowledge we studied, and that's important too. But I think a lot of things get missed when we stereotype of who lives in the food desert. And again, talking back to our food justice is talking about what are those overall policies, what are those overall constructs systems? When we think about food desert, we think of deserts as naturally occurring. And the situation with access to healthy, culturally relevant foods for certain underserved communities in our country is not a natural. It's absolutely not an individual choice. We get these connotations of the stereotypes I was talking about. It's your own fault. No. There's a lot of systemic things that are against folks, if we call them social determinants of health.


[00:13:30.090] - Jackie Rybin

So if you look up those, there's a lot of factors that shape how these communities come about. And I guess just going back to the food desert aspect is that, yes, it's not naturally occurring. It's important to understand that there are policies in our systems and our colonialistic United States that have created these underserved folks with lack of access to healthy, culturally relevant foods that should be human right. And should be a wide accessibility, too.


[00:14:03.750] - Ashley Munro

And what's the other word that makes more sense to use? Because the word desert, because these food insecurity and the lack of food justice in certain communities is not naturally occurring. It's a built system really of marginalization. What's the alternative word, I guess. And why does that make more sense?


[00:14:22.960] - Jackie Rybin

Yes. Well, I did not coin this term, but it's keeping up with the times. Right. It's kind of keeping us with more appropriate to use. And I am 100% supportive of it's called food apartheid. So again, we picked apart desert. Right. So what does apartheid mean? So I just looked up a general definition online. And apartheid is a system of institutional racial segregation and discrimination. And so if you think of that, think about the food policies, different policies that have been racially discriminatory of certain populations that have been underserved in the US. So again, that hits more at those root causes, being in those spaces of why is this the way it is and understanding the broader systems historic. I love history now because I'm like why are things I mean, again, things that you don't appreciate as a kid that actually I'm in it. So I think it's really important to really get at those root causes. And the term to the apartheid is 100% more of a term that is more appropriate describe communities that are facing lack of access to healthy, culturally relevant foods. I think it's really important that we start going that way.


[00:15:47.250] - Jackie Rybin



[00:15:47.460] - Ashley Munro

Because you can't just put more grocery stores in places that don't have enough access to food. Right. You have to pay people more money, you have to give more jobs. You have to address systemic injustices. More like you're saying, like the root causes of the injustice is what is more important to making it more equitable. I think we're also talking just about equity.


[00:16:15.970] - Jackie Rybin

Really? Yeah, exactly. The difference between equity and equality. Right. So if you think about that, watching the baseball game, I think a lot of folks have been at the different boxes. Right. And when I think of that, I think the term like food Mirage also describes that because people will say, well, there's more grocery stores coming in. Well, let's say it is a fancy grocery store in the community. So that goes into gentrification. So it's kind of term that you all can look up if interested, but it really pushes out those mom and pop stores and kind of pushes out community members that have been there to start with. And I noticed a lot more of this when I lived in Seattle. So that gets into a little bit of that food Mirage, these really fancy gourmet grocery stores. But can you afford it? Right. And that's not equitable.


[00:17:07.710] - Ashley Munro

This is a sidecar. But I wonder how much cultural appropriation is also going on trying to have these fancy grocery stores fit in certain communities. Are they doing things like that that kind of feel icky in the sense of instead of just giving people more access to thriving in our own communities and what that would look like. And you mentioned the image of equity. I will definitely link to that. So students who maybe have never seen it will. And you mentioned that. And as you've been talking about terms, I feel like this might be a good episode to have, like a glossary, like at the beginning of some of the books you have like a glossary of the common terms we're going to use. I think that might help students kind of tease out and then get them curious about and not even just students, but anyone who's going to listen today kind of figure out what some ways that this can kind of all click because it is really complex, because we're asking you to kind of Peel back all of the layers of what makes our system our system. So speaking to food justice, being a movement, that's the food justice piece before we talk about what we can do as a community to help support that, what about food sovereignty?


[00:18:13.090] - Ashley Munro

What is different about that terminology since we're playing with terms today?


[00:18:17.840] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Ashley. I love these questions. So food sovereignty term bodies, that relationship between the land and the people, and having that autonomy to control your food system, your food production, and being able to care for your community, to take care of yourself as an individual, your family, your communities, and kind of that waterfall effect, you have that choice. You get that choice of what humanity want and what you really deserve as a human right of having that access to those foods.


[00:18:52.830] - Ashley Munro

Yes. That makes a lot of sense. It's giving it back to the community to do what they've known how to do forever if they were just given the I feel like if all communities have the necessary resources and power. So I think it comes back to power. The ability to take care of the community would make more sense. But because there's displacement in that power, I feel like that is part of what makes this really challenging, which maybe makes my next question really hard, which is what can we do as a community to help support food justice and food sovereignty movement? We're going to have Food Day which we're going to talk about on campus, ways that we can engage our U of a community into learning and having more knowledge around these food justice elements. But I guess in general, how can we help support some of these movements as individuals? Yes, there needs to be the systemic change, but as individuals, what can we do to at least do some best practice?


[00:19:59.590] - Jackie Rybin

No, that's great, Ashley, thank you. As a community, I really think in our capitalistic society is capital is very key. Right. So there's a lot of talk about reparations as well, because if you look at the history of the United States, the true history of colonialism, and that damage has been done to communities that now we would consider being in apartheid. And I think that is like giving that power back, that capital, and that really donating to bike pock led community advocates and organizations, whether it be in Tucson or nationally, kind of wherever you can find folks that are specifically like community led community advocates that are within the community, have live experience that are advocating for their own communities. And I'm speaking again with my professionality as a white CIS woman, too. I don't know. Neither do you, actually. Right. But having that kind of ego check, too, of like, yeah, I don't know everything. But you do. So giving that funding empowering with your dollars. And I think that's one of the biggest parts, too, of What Can we do? I think going into also, if you want to enter these spaces and you want to do the work to unlearn those systemic implicit biases we've grown up with, and I think it's really key to actively listen to community members, activists, and those working in communities and with communities to help promote their own food justice and sovereignty.


[00:21:52.750] - Jackie Rybin

I think that means just taking a step back. And I know a lot of people have a lot of knowledge, but just taking a backseat and listening. So kind of really listening and being supportive, I guess opening up space in these discussions for folks with lived experience and have been harmed the most by colonialization and kind of white supremacy culture that is really embedded in our food system.


[00:22:17.950] - Ashley Munro

And I think that's such an important piece of having those brave conversations and coming in and really kind of understanding that you might be uncomfortable. But that's an invitation to lean in, and that's an invitation to get curious about why I feel uncomfortable about this topic or why do I feel uncomfortable when I hear some of this terminology? I think it's always interesting to kind of take a step back and think about where our own discomfort is coming from when we learn new information or hear people's lived experience and don't necessarily feel like that it warrants validation, I guess.


[00:22:55.100] - Jackie Rybin

I don't know, especially if you have those feelings that come up in those spaces of it's not bypaw folks job to comfort you a lot of white comfort of no, because if you think about really the harm and trauma that certain populations have gone through, it's a privilege, right. To be able to do the work, to unlearn, I guess, avoid being that white savior mentality. So that's really important. That's another term that I'll add. It's a certain complex, too, right. Coming into communities of I want to say no, it's really important to just take a step back, kind of just listen. So don't think actively listen. So that means not you have all these ideas and maybe write those down, but let's take up less space in these discussions and leave more space for folks and really believe, I think believe populations, their struggles and what their needs and wants are there's so much strength and knowledge systems that we don't even know as a Western one.


[00:24:06.670] - Ashley Munro

And that's how I was kind of getting out earlier with this idea of like, people have been feeding themselves for ever and ever and ever with their own cultural food. So I think a lot of times, I guess I get kind of missed about sometimes in nutrition or in health where we kind of talk about certain foods being healthier than other foods. It's like, well, are we just saying that because they don't align with the dominant narrative or more Westernized views of what healthy food looks like? And I think too, from a health standpoint, I mean, this is another change in and of itself. But when certain populations are higher risk for this health condition and this, we're still kind of putting so much blame on the individual when it's really like this systemic problem. And I heard a Gal once, an activist once talked about like people don't make good choices, they have good choices. And so I think even that educator hat where I'm coming in and I want to do this education. It's like it's not our job to save folks. They don't always need to be kind of maybe we should come from this place that I want to empower you and what do you need for me versus you must do blank.


[00:25:15.650] - Ashley Munro

And I think it's just like if they don't have good choices to make, how can we expect for folks to choose health promoting behaviors? Do you know what I mean?


[00:25:24.580] - Jackie Rybin

Exactly. Yeah. And again, unpacking that if you think of our society in the United States, we're very individualized. Right. So that is very focused. You individually made that poor choice. So I think it's really important to just also when you're stepping back, put yourself in someone else's shoes, if you had to work two jobs, you had three kids to support. And there's just a lot of factors that I think, again, humans are so complex that I think it's comfortable, again, to stick in those narratives of stereotypes of who someone is and kind of judging them on their health choices. But I really challenged folks to kind of put themselves in other folks, other communities shoes.


[00:26:07.550] - Ashley Munro

I think people do a lot of assuming. I think we look at an individual and make a lot of assumptions. And I think sometimes we're just asking for people to kind of pause and not react maybe and put yourself in their shoes or honestly look up what social determinants of health are and just recognize that our health is determined by so many things and individual behaviors is such a small piece of that. I just think that people don't always look at it from that lens.


[00:26:37.910] - Jackie Rybin

The last piece, too, of just what's healthy and unhealthy, too. I know I'm doing a grains lesson as an Internet Tucson village farm. And yes, half of your grains have to be whole grains. But as a human, I love my white rice. I love that versus Brown rice. And I think, yeah, we just need to avoid that demonizing, too. Because working with food insecure communities, it's like if a child or someone just has access to white rice, there's still nutrients in it. That's just one example. But I think what's healthy and unhealthy. And also there's so many cultural foods that are so healthy, so rich in vitamin, nutrients, that it's kind of a shame that some of those things get demonized when doing health education because there's so many good, yummy, good foods that are so healthy and. Sorry, but yeah, that's no.


[00:27:34.860] - Ashley Munro

I love that because I used to do more diabetes education by trade. I'm a diabetes educator. And when we talk about carbohydrates, we talk about grains, we talk about food in like, white rice in particular. I think the discussion of all your grains must be whole grains. And we're really just asking people to eat a little more fiber. So sometimes I would just tell folks like, okay, white rice maybe doesn't have as much fiber as Brown rice. Honestly, the difference is not that great. It's not that big of a deal. But anyway, for the sake of argument, white rice doesn't have as much fiber. So how could we add fiber to white rice? Could we put a vegetable in there? Could we add something else that just like, gives it more fiber versus changing or demonizing the item of food that is a staple in so many cultures? Yeah, I think you make a really good point there, and there doesn't always have to be this swapping even. But like, adding or thinking about corn tortillas are a staple in some people's households, and those have tons of fiber in them. And I don't know, I think there's lots of ways to go about it if we think about it more broadly or take our kind of very narrow idea of what house has to look like off.


[00:28:51.570] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah, just put that y hat on. Why are they like that? Does it have to be that we're very complex beings live outside the box, challenge that and kind of actually. Why is this the way it is? Why do we have this culture? Why do we it's okay.


[00:29:13.030] - Ashley Munro

Oh, my gosh. And I saw this thing the other day. I can link to it if people want to look at it, but it's like the eat well exchange. It's like they go into they talk a lot about food justice. And it's not in Arizona. It's in a different part of the country. But one of the things they were talking about, their two dietitians were if you're going to serve people in certain communities that you don't live in, go to their grocery stores, go see what they have access to, go to their community to see what the food availability is like before you go in and do any education or any recommending or all of that to just kind of understand what the reality is before you kind of go that route. And this is maybe specifically for folks who are going to go out and work in those communities. But I thought that was such a great point and it takes our expert hats off and it helps us be more inclusive, I think.


[00:30:08.700] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah, I think that humility.


[00:30:11.030] - Ashley Munro

That's a great word.


[00:30:13.850] - Jackie Rybin

I also recognize that going into different communities, too, when I lived in Seattle and it was right before Thanksgiving and it was another health educator doing the nutrition or cooking portion of this lesson and was like, oh, you're going to have Turkey, you're going to have mashed potatoes, these very Western centric kind of what Thanksgiving is to a primarily Hispanic group of women that were like, we don't eat these things. We don't eat these things. And so again, it's kind of again trying not to make those assumptions of what you think people eat and what they enjoy. And again, kind of think outside that box.


[00:30:59.370] - Ashley Munro

Yeah, I love that. And I think if anything, this discussion will give folks a lot of room to kind of think and to kind of get curious about some of these topics. But for students who maybe are new to some of this information or anyone who listened to the show that maybe is new to this information, we will link to a lot of stuff in the show notes. But are there any specific resources that students can access if they want more on this topic and they just feel like lit on fire with some desire for change?


[00:31:33.230] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. So I kind of go back when I was an undergrad, I still bit dated of a documentary series, but I did watch this in my public health series class, and it had me a lecture here in the ILT just oh, just like why is this like this? But it's called a natural causes. And it's actually a good resource, too, to look at that systematic with the Toyota Odom community and kind of water resources and how I think it goes really good into looking at systems. So it's a really good intro, too, because that's what got me fired up and why I'm where I'm at today. And I think that it's all the data. But again, it's still accurate to kind of where things are today, unfortunately.


[00:32:25.180] - Ashley Munro

Yeah. I think that's a great resource.


[00:32:28.410] - Jackie Rybin

Yes. And I think working directly with community members, too, I just encourage students to really get out there and get involved in your community because there's a lot of optimism, too. There's a lot of fight. There's a lot of very determination. And I think there's a lot of hope.


[00:32:42.670] - Ashley Munro



[00:32:43.020] - Jackie Rybin

And then I think I also put Gather, which is a documentary on Netflix. I recommend folks to watch it's in regards to Indigenous food sovereignty. And it's on there now. But for unnatural causes that can be watched for free through the U of a library.


[00:32:59.860] - Ashley Munro

Oh, cool. I was going to ask you, I know it's on PBS, but I was going to ask how you access that. So we appreciate all of your time before we end each podcast. That's so much good information. Before we end each podcast, we ask our guests just a couple of rapid fire questions to learn a little bit more about you. Are you ready? There's only three?


[00:33:18.870] - Jackie Rybin

Yes, I'm ready. I feel like I'm on Brene Brown's podcast. I love this.


[00:33:23.270] - Ashley Munro

Does she do this too?


[00:33:24.730] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah, she does.


[00:33:25.760] - Ashley Munro

That's amazing. I feel like that's really cool.


[00:33:28.030] - Jackie Rybin



[00:33:28.370] - Ashley Munro

If you could only eat three foods ever again, what would they be?


[00:33:31.460] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. So I put homemade doll. So I had that. I worked for a family that was from India and the mom made this homemade doll every time I would nanny her kids and I dream of it all the time and I cannot recreate it. But it was her homemade doll. I love it. Mango, sticky rice. I've been to Thailand twice and I can't get enough of it. It's amazing. And then I know it's like foods, but this is like kind of dishes.


[00:33:55.140] - Ashley Munro

But I like it.


[00:33:57.390] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. And then Wavo's Rancheros number one. So those are my three foods. If I could ever get good choices. Alright.


[00:34:08.270] - Ashley Munro

Number two would be breakfast or dinner.


[00:34:10.450] - Jackie Rybin

If you had to choose 1000% breakfast. Yeah, I'm a breakfast person.


[00:34:15.970] - Ashley Munro

I'm the same way. Is it just like breakfast food anytime a day are good for you?


[00:34:21.930] - Jackie Rybin

They have a lot of sugar. They have a lot of pancakes. Waffles decadent? I don't know. I think not all the time, but I just feel like I have a history of loving breakfast.


[00:34:33.530] - Ashley Munro

I love it. My daughter's had whipped cream on her pancakes every day this week so far. Yeah, me.


[00:34:39.750] - Jackie Rybin

That's so good.


[00:34:40.930] - Ashley Munro

If you have last question and maybe. Yeah. It's always an interesting one. If you could have dinner with three people dead or alive, who would they be?


[00:34:49.360] - Jackie Rybin

Yeah. Number one, again, I know you're talking about like watching unnatural causes, but there are certain folks that speak that are so powerful and I think one of those folks is James Baldwin. So he was an activist and a novelist kind of subject of the civil rights movement and so there's a movie Document Flex called I'm not your Negro and I think that just his words are just so powerful and really kind of question why things are where they are. So sorry. That was number one. I'd love to have dinner with James Baldwin Anthony Bourdain if I could have his life rest in peace of just kind of going around the world and kind of having that humility and really trying new things and inspiration and last person I would love to have dinner with is she is still alive is Rupee Carr and she is I know if you can but a badass poet and really her words are just always hit in her books. So those are my three. I love that. Thank you.


[00:36:16.550] - Ashley Munro

Yeah, that's a great dinner party for sure. And I always say this in every podcast. I'm such a broken record but I really feel like all the diversity and who people choose is really fun to kind of see and I appreciate you sharing it with us today. This topic is vast and so I asked so much of Jackie today to squeeze all of her knowledge and all of this like big conversation into 30 minutes or less and we're going to probably have to come back and circle back to some of these topics. Maybe another time too. If people if you all have more questions and comments, we'd love to hear from you but I just want to thank you for your time and just all the work you do on this topic and all the humility you hold in this space and yeah, I'm just so grateful for you so thank you for being on the show today.


[00:37:07.660] - Jackie Rybin

Thank you, Ashley. I appreciate you having this platform too. So to have these voices. I appreciate it. Awesome.


[00:37:13.670] - Ashley Munro

Alright, Jackie.


[00:37:14.470] - Jackie Rybin

Thank you.