Episode 24: Eating Disorders Transcript
[00:00:00.310] - Ashley
Alright. Hello, Jan. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being on the show today. Can you please tell our audience, our students, who you are and what it is you do here on campus?
[00:00:11.760] - Jan Courtney
Sure. I'm Jan Courtney and I am the coordinator for eating disorder services at CAPS, or counseling and psych services. So I provide counseling for eating disorders, disordered eating, body image issues - all those sorts of things - but I also see people for anxiety, depression, and whatever else presents at CAPS. I co-chair the eating assessment and treatment team in Body Positive Arizona with Lisa McDonald, who is our coordinator of nutrition. And I co-facilitate the CEDAR group, which is our College Eating Disorder Awareness and Recovery group.
[00:00:50.590] - Ashley
So you do a few things here on campus.
[00:00:52.920] - Jan Courtney
Yeah.
[00:00:54.590] - Ashley
Wear many hats. I think sometimes when even students hear all of those services and resources, it's like, wow, there's a lot of opportunity to get support and build community. And I think that's always what I'm excited about when you all come on the podcast is to share all the things that students have access to here on campus, which I think is a little unique during their time here versus out in the community. So you mentioned you treat, I'm going to go a little bit out of order here, but you mentioned you talked to students about both eating disorders and disordered eating. Can you explain maybe what the difference is between disordered eating and eating disorders? Because I think those words get thrown around a lot.
[00:01:36.910] - Jan Courtney
Absolutely, and it can be really difficult sometimes to determine where that line is. So if we start with kind of a traditional definition of what normal eating is, or non disordered eating, a lot of times we hear that that's a person who eats when they're hungry and stops when they're full, and also they incorporate all sorts of variety in their diet. So I've heard that these folks are out there. Not sure I know any of them, but I like Ellen Satter's definition. She is a registered dietitian, family therapist and author. I'm just going to read her definition, if that's okay. She says "normal eating is going to the table hungry and eating until you're satisfied. It's being able to choose food you like and eat it and truly get enough of it, not just stop eating because you think you should. Normal eating is being able to give some thought to your food selection so you get nutritious food, but not being so wary and restrictive that you miss out on enjoyable food. Normal eating is giving yourself permission to eat sometimes because you're happy, sad or bored or just because it feels good. Normal eating is three meals a day or four or five, or it can be choosing to munch along the way. It's leaving some cookies on the plate because you know you can have some again tomorrow, or it's eating more now because they taste so wonderful. Normal eating is overeating at times - feeling stuffed and uncomfortable - and it can be undereating at times and wishing you had more. Normal eating is trusting your body to make up for your mistakes in eating. Normal eating takes up some of your time and attention, but keeps its place as only one important area of your life. In short, normal eating is flexible. It varies in response to your hunger, your schedule, your proximity to food and feelings."
[00:03:31.010] - Jan Courtney
So we can even include folks in that who do sometimes diet or over-exercise for short periods of time so they can fit into that "special outfit," I'm using air quotes. However, the behaviors don't interfere with their daily lives. They can find something to eat in any restaurant, so they don't have to spend a great deal of time obsessively thinking about food. That's kind of a really broad definition which encompasses so many different behaviors and all come under the heading of normal eating.
[00:04:02.390] - Jan Courtney
So that kind of leads me to talk about, and let me know if this is where you want me to go next, what we can look for in ourselves and others if we think there's a problem beyond just disordered. So we look at the frequency of behaviors. Do they skip a meal once in a while or multiple meals in a week? Do you overeat once in a while or frequently? Does the person vomit once in a while because they drank too much or because they party too hard or frequently, always with a variety of explanations and excuses for why they're engaging in that behavior? The problem here is that most folks keep these behaviors a secret because there's a lot of shame around eating disorder behaviors, and so often we don't observe them when they happen. But another thing that I look at when I'm looking at eating disorders is the amount of time spent obsessing about food, what I should or shouldn't eat, who prepared the food? What kind of oil did they use? People who are constantly counting calories, fat grams, number of carbs, macro and micronutrients, et cetera, or exercising specifically to burn off the extra calories.
[00:05:15.110] - Jan Courtney
And these behaviors are very often done under the guise of being healthy. So the third thing I look at is how much did the behaviors and or the thoughts interfere with daily living? Can the person enjoy going out to eat with a friend, or do they ever skip a party or a class because they just have to exercise? And very often, eating disorders begin as attempts to lose a few pounds, to get in better shape, or to eat healthier, a really common starting point. And then at some point, those good intentions take on a mind of their own and begin to run the show. Eating disorders can be multifaceted, and that final diagnosis should be done by a professional.
[00:05:58.450] - Ashley
Oh, those are so good. I wrote so many things down, so I'm just trying to [process]. Yes, there's like this shame element and this time spent obsessing, like this preoccupation, maybe. And then how it isolates the person and that makes them not want to enjoy their life. And it's such a counter to when you read the normal eating passage, there's such freedom and flexibility, and that's the thread in which that lives. And then this other side of it, maybe eating disorders walk this fine line of "I just want to be healthy," and then it dips into this more obsessive place for folks that takes up so much of their brain space and worry and time.
[00:06:45.700] - Jan Courtney
Right.
[00:06:46.580] - Ashley
And I think, too, some of the things you mentioned, like counting calories or skipping meals or exercising a certain way, it does go under this guise of health. And I think there's this interesting thing about, like, it's so normalized, too. So I think that's why eating disorders kind of can fly under the radar is because it's really normalized in our culture. You could argue that our culture in itself has this disordered relationship with food, and it makes it really hard to tease out, I think, in our individual people. But it sounds like what sets the disorder apart is the mental aspect of it, like the time and the preoccupation, right?
[00:07:29.310] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, very much so. Sometimes in more advanced eating disorders, we'll see, like, really low body weight or people who have gastrointestinal problems because they've been eating and making themselves either throw up or using laxatives or diuretics. Those are kind of the obvious signs of eating disorder. And I think it's really important that we not jump to the conclusion that somebody who is in a really tiny body necessarily has an eating disorder or somebody who's in a large body necessarily has an eating disorder because weight is not a primary determinant.
[00:08:10.040] - Ashley
Right.
[00:08:10.540] - Jan Courtney
It's something that in advanced stages of disease sometimes does come into play. But there are lots of people out there who look, quote, "normal" to all intent and purpose, and have some really dysfunctional behaviors and thought patterns that interfere with their ability to just enjoy life on a day-to-day basis.
[00:08:31.700] - Ashley
Yeah, I've had clients and students tell me before, too, that because there's this stereotypical eating disorder, I think in the movies and media that gets portrayed, that they felt very invalidated. Like their eating disorder was never validated, and they never felt like they were allowed to get better because they were feeling a certain way about this disordered relationship with food or because they didn't have the typical eating disorder body or something. And I thought that was really, whenever that comes up, I think it's really interesting and harmful because it doesn't allow these people to achieve this normal-eating freedom place. And they almost get stuck in this place because they never had the ability to be validated of like, "yeah, this is something that you're dealing with, and this is hard and you deserve to get better even though you're not maybe that emaciated picture," that they see in the media of what is some eating disorders.
[00:09:32.590] - Jan Courtney
Absolutely. That question comes up frequently. "Am I sick enough?"
[00:09:37.860] - Ashley
Yeah, totally.
[00:09:39.290] - Jan Courtney
"Do I really deserve to or need to get therapy? Because I'm kind of doing what everybody else is doing, but it doesn't seem to be bothering anybody else. I spend all my time doing this, thinking about it. I even think about it when I'm doing other things."
[00:09:56.610] - Ashley
Yeah. And maybe that's kind of what transitions to like, I think what comes up in College, too, is what makes being in this College environment extra tricky for people when they're navigating body image or food? Do you think?
[00:10:10.950] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, absolutely. I think what makes it- some of the things that make it so difficult in the College environment is just that we live in diet culture and we grow up being inundated with this thin ideal. And that happens in media, it was always there in magazine ads and TV shows and movies, this thin ideal. Commercials always show people that are in very small bodies doing wonderful things and having wonderful times, and everybody's always happy all the time. But that's held up to be the norm. But if you look at the statistics, that's not the norm. That's not where most people fall. And so maintaining healthy eating and an attitude of body neutrality can be really challenging, and it's accentuated in College. And I've heard from talking to my colleagues around the country, that it can be even more difficult in places like Arizona, where the weather is beautiful most of the time and so a lot fewer amounts of clothing are worn. So people walk around in really skimpy clothing, which can really make you feel like you're on display all the time. And if you don't fit this perfect image, that somebody has created, that there's something wrong with you.
[00:11:34.590] - Jan Courtney
So you need to engage in all kinds of extraordinary behaviors so that you can look like that.
[00:11:40.730] - Ashley
Yeah. There's not the same liberation of like, I deserve to wear a sports bra, no matter what size of body I'm in. I'm hyper-aware because I am showing more skin, even though it's for my comfort because it's a million degrees outside. Yeah, that's a good point. I always forget about that, and I think it's because I was born and raised in Arizona, that other places around the world don't have to deal with those temperatures as much as we do.
[00:12:06.600] - Jan Courtney
And that doesn't mean that necessarily there's a higher incidence of eating disorders, but it certainly creates an awareness when you don't get to bundle up in snow clothes for two months out of the year. Your body's really much more on display all the time if that's the kind of thing that you're overly concerned about. And it's just fed into constantly by the talk that we have with one another, by the language that we use all the time. So it is supported unconsciously, as well as consciously. And then social media, of course, has just really made that explode. There's no way to escape unless you are very intentional about it.
[00:12:50.800] - Ashley
Yeah. And that's actually, the Nutrition Navigator volunteers were asking that. How does social media play a role- or what kind of role- I think they know what kind of role it plays, but how do we protect ourselves from that comparison trap?
[00:13:08.150] - Jan Courtney
And that's a really tough question. You're right, they do know how it happens. I like to ask people what's on your social media? What influences do you follow? And when you're on social media or when you stop for a moment, do you feel better than when you started, or do you feel worse than when you started? And most people, if they're being honest, feel worse because not only are you comparing yourself to whoever is presenting themselves on their best day, when they're having a good hair day, and they like the way their body looks, and then on top of that, they use filters. So what we end up looking at is not even real human beings, but filtered and adjusted and changed to ideals that don't even exist in reality.
[00:14:01.310] - Ashley
Yeah. It's like we're all participating in that, like self-objectification or objectifying bodies. And it's like the only thing that makes you valuable is that you're pretty or thin.
[00:14:19.290] - Jan Courtney
Absolutely, and that you have friends who look a certain way and that you're engaging in certain activities with.
[00:14:28.690] - Ashley
You might have already answered this earlier, but I guess if you were to give some clear- you kind of talked about this when we talked about eating disorder versus disordered eating, but some clear signs and symptoms. If I'm in a group of friends, or I live with a roommate, I think that's always very interesting when you live with people and you see behaviors that you maybe wouldn't see when you're just socializing and hanging out with them on the weekends or at a party, what are some signs and symptoms that maybe students can look for in themselves or in others?
[00:15:01.750] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, I think I kind of did talk about that. But let me go over some of the highlights of it. So if you see somebody, and I don't think I mentioned this one, but if you notice that your friend or roommate goes to the bathroom immediately after they eat all the time and turns up the music or the TV or runs water the whole time they're in there, then you might wonder if maybe they are perching right after they eat. If you have somebody who always says, oh, no, thanks, I already ate at home. Somebody who says, oh, I'd love to go with you, but I have to go to the gym. So that they're actually missing out on being able to socialize because it's a compulsion. They have to go to the gym and they have to work off the calories that they ate. When you hear somebody engaging in a lot of conversation around their macro and micronutrients, or just continually talking about eating healthier. And it's not that every time you hear or see any of these things, it automatically means the person who has an eating disorder, but if you see these things happening frequently and if they interfere with their ability to do other things or engage in other behaviors, then you start to wonder about those behaviors.
[00:16:25.940] - Ashley
Yeah. And I'm wondering and I guess that's so tricky because I think it involves having brave conversations with people. And I think that is a skill in of itself. And I don't know necessarily when I was in College if that came easy necessarily to have those brave conversations with people that you either really enjoy their company, you live with them, or like there's part of you also that is comparing yourself to them, too. So it's hard, I think, to have some brave conversations. But if you feel the need or if you want to come from this place of compassion, how do we approach friends? How do we take care of each other?
[00:17:07.880] - Jan Courtney
That's a great question. And so the first thing that I'd suggest is that people do a little bit of reading on eating disorders. Educate yourself about just basically what an eating disorder is, and if you are concerned about a friend, invite them to talk at a private time and place. No one likes to be called out in public. That's really important. It's not helpful to say to somebody, oh, my gosh, I noticed that you always, fill in the blank, when you're with your group of friends. And then if you do set up a time to talk to them, do your best to use "I" statements. Like, "I've been noticing that a lot of times when we got to eat, you really just push your food around on your plate. You don't eat any of it." Or, "I notice that you've lost a lot of weight lately." Or, "I notice that you're spending more and more time at the gym and spending less time going out with us." So part of that "I" statement is to be sure that you stick to the facts. Don't tell them: that means this, or that means that. Just say: this is what I noticed and I'm concerned about it.
[00:18:22.510] - Jan Courtney
Don't promise your friend or your loved one, whoever it is, that you'll keep whatever they tell you a secret. Be caring but firm. Because if they do disclose to you that they really are engaged in behaviors that give you concern for their well-being, then you might need to either try to convince them to talk to somebody. Or if it's really serious, you might at the end of the day decide that you need to talk to someone else about it. Another thing is, if they do share any of this with you, don't offer simple solutions like, "oh, just eat more" or "just stop doing that." "Don't think about it anymore." Those kinds of things aren't really helpful. If they could just do any of those things, they would have already done them.
[00:19:15.250] - Ashley
It's like invalidating their experience.
[00:19:17.900] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, absolutely. And be prepared for a variety of different reactions. Sometimes people will just break down and say, "oh, my gosh, this has been going on, and I didn't know how to bring it up or how to talk to anybody about it. And thank you so much for noticing." But they might also get really angry. "What business is this of yours" or "no, I don't do that" or "who asked you" or whatever it is. All those responses are normal. So don't back down, repeat your concern to your friend, go back to your observation and just leave the door open for more conversation at a later time. If you get a really negative reaction, probably not the time to keep pushing.
[00:20:05.080] - Ashley
Right.
[00:20:05.580] - Jan Courtney
But you have opened the door. You've made them aware that, "Hey, I'm concerned."
[00:20:11.400] - Ashley
Yeah. I'm here for you, and I'm not going to try to offer those- I'm not going to try to give you advice. I'm just really here for you and support you.
[00:20:18.810] - Jan Courtney
Right. And I'm not judging you as a bad person or doing something terrible, I'm just letting you know that I'm concerned because I'm worried that this could really be harming your health.
[00:20:29.830] - Ashley
Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think you're right, I think the variety of responses probably depends on where they are and the process. I think it's easy to see things retrospectively or when you look back. But in the moment when you're in it, I think it can be hard to step out of that and see what's really going on, especially since it's like, "well, Susie is doing what I'm doing. Why are you worried about me instead of Susie?"
[00:20:54.400] - Jan Courtney
Right. And I have had people who are pretty deeply into those behaviors say to me, "oh, well, so and so it's just jealous because I lost all this weight and she can't do it."
[00:21:04.530] - Ashley
Right.
[00:21:05.440] - Jan Courtney
Or with guys: because I've been building all this muscle and he's not dedicated enough.
[00:21:12.310] - Ashley
Yeah. Maybe that's like part of it, like it's okay. It's our human- what is it like- our human desire to help people and fix things? They don't really need that. So maybe know that going in, like, it's not your job to fix them. It's your job to support them.
[00:21:29.070] - Jan Courtney
Right. That's a really nice way to put it.
[00:21:33.610] - Ashley
That's a good way to approach them, if friends or loved ones even [experience eating disorders]. I love that point of reading up on it and educating ourselves on maybe the signs and symptoms or screening ourselves even. We'll link to some resources for students in the show notes about the National Eating Disorder Association [which] has some screening questions, lots of articles and lots of good resources. So I'll be sure to link to that and a couple of other resources that Jan has mentioned today.
[00:22:05.490] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:22:06] I'm sorry. Go ahead.
[00:22:07.740] - Ashley
No, you go for it.
[00:22:09.020] - Jan Courtney
I was just going to say, if you talk to someone and you really are concerned that their behaviors are falling way beyond that Bell curve of normal behaviors, encourage them to talk to a professional, to either a doctor or a therapist who's knowledgeable about eating disorders. We have several people at CAPS. If students are on campus that they can come and they're welcome to come and ask questions, and they will get honest information from knowledgeable professionals. And then it's still the students option to decide what they want to do with that information. Nobody is coerced or forced to do anything.
[00:22:51.030] - Ashley
That's a really good point. That this resource is here also just to be like a sounding board. And it doesn't necessarily mean - I don't know what people think - counseling is going to be this big time commitment or this big - I don't know always what they're afraid of necessarily, other than it's uncomfortable or it can be for folks. But, yeah, that you could just ask questions and get some nonbiased answers, that is a third party perspective.
[00:23:18.710] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:20.530] - Ashley
Well, cool. So any other resources you can think of if students are looking for a better understanding of this topic?
[00:23:32.410] - Jan Courtney
Yeah. You mentioned National Eating Disorder Association. That's my number one go to. There are lots of books out there, and I certainly haven't read all of them. There's a plethora of them. But just looking at if you want to educate yourself more about a particular eating disorder or living with an eating disorder, read the Amazon reviews and see how people have responded to the books.
[00:23:57.970] - Ashley
That's a good tip.
[00:23:58.990] - Ashley
So we'll link to all those in the show notes. And then, is there anything that we didn't ask today that you wanted to share with our audience?
[00:24:07.750] - Jan Courtney
Yeah. The other part we've talked a lot about the eating disorder behaviors, and we've kind of alluded to the obsession, the obsessive thinking about it. But body image comes into that, too.
[00:24:21.380] - Ashley
Yes.
[00:24:22.450] - Jan Courtney
And body image is so interesting to me because I can tell you, I've been doing this for a long time. And through the years, I've had people in my office of all different shapes and sizes, from models to really tiny bodies to really large bodies, and I hear the same issues come up from all of them: I don't like my body. I'm not comfortable in my body. I think other people are judging me. I'm constantly comparing myself to others. So that just tells me that there is not that perfect body. We have this idea that if only I could get to this size, then I would be happy. And that apparently is not a true statement because it doesn't bear out. So how do we combat that? One thing is look at your social media. Who are you following? Expand your Horizons. Let yourself look at people who are living in a variety of different types of bodies, even able bodied and less able bodies, and see that people of all varieties are living fulfilling, helpful lives. They are being active physically to the degree that they can. And talk about it. Talk about these things.
[00:25:51.430] - Jan Courtney
Keeping quiet is what perpetuates it.
[00:25:54.460] - Ashley
I love that. Oh, my gosh. And that reminds me, someone once told me that shame can only live in secret. And I thought that that was beautiful. Like, if we just talk about these things, it normalizes the conversation and it starts, yeah, it starts to get us thinking differently.
[00:26:14.210] - Jan Courtney
When you can disengage from the conversation that supports diet culture and that ideal. So how do I look in this? Does this make my whatever look too big? First of all, there's no good answer to that, because if you say, "oh, yes, you look great," the person probably won't believe you anyway. And if you tell them that you don't like the way they look, then they're just going to feel bad and be angry. So maybe trying to change the conversation: let's just go and have fun. How do you feel? Do you feel comfortable in what you're wearing? That's what's most important, because I want you to be able to have fun doing whatever we're doing today and not worrying about how you look in that. So wear something that feels comfortable. And then another conversation that I really like to engage people in is when we focus on trying to have that perfect diet or the perfect exercise routine that will end up giving us the perfect body, who's profiting from all the time, energy and money that we're spending in doing this? Is it you? Is it your friends? It's the beauty diet, exercise mega industrial complex.
[00:27:35.850] - Jan Courtney
It is a $5 to $7 billion / year industry, and it thrives on making us feel insecure about how we look, what we eat, what we do. It was a comedian, and I don't remember who it was one time, it was a female comedian and she said, "you know, if one day at the exact same moment, all the women in the world stopped worrying about what their bodies looked like and stepped outside, we would take over the world in heartbeat."
[00:28:13.350] - Ashley
Totally. Yeah, it's like, it keeps people distracted and is giving this industry that really is just preying on our insecurities really really really rich.
[00:28:28.170] - Jan Courtney
Yeah. How else could I sell you this whole new system of eating or makeup or exercise, if you felt okay about the way you were? You wouldn't even pay attention to it. But if I can find that little insecurity: it's the brightness of your skin, it's the bags under your eyes, it's the plumpness of your lips. I mean, you can go on forever.
[00:28:50.850] - Ashley
Yeah.
[00:28:51.580] - Jan Courtney
And they will hit them all because you may love your skin tone and your plump lips, but the bags under your eyes, or they just know how to get right in there. There's something that everybody's insecure about, so we'll rush right out and buy that product.
[00:29:06.260] - Ashley
It reminds me of, and I don't know if students will know this reference because I don't know if it's before their time, maybe it's not, but the Mean Girls movie. Where they're, like, standing in front of the mirror and the girl is like, "I have the worst cuticles." It's just like, you can always find [insecurities]. And what is that? Who taught us how? Well, maybe we know who taught us, but who taught us how to pick apart our bodies and find things that are wrong with them, as a way to bond socially?
[00:29:35.020] - Jan Courtney
Right.
[00:29:38.010] - Ashley
And what you're talking about is not participating, or participating only in things that maybe help you feel good about yourself or that you have the control over, and then otherwise not participating in things.
[00:29:50.260] - Jan Courtney
And it's so weird, Ashley, if somebody invited you to a party and said, "oh, I'm so excited, Ashley, I'm going to take you to this party, and we are going to do five different activities, each one designed to make you feel terrible about yourself, aren't you excited?" I mean, would you go?
[00:30:06.450] - Ashley
That's a really good point. I don't want to go to that party.
[00:30:09.870] - Jan Courtney
But we live in that party.
[00:30:12.110] - Ashley
We do, but I don't think you know you live in it until you can look at it, right?
[00:30:16.420] - Jan Courtney
Right.
[00:30:17.280] - Ashley
Yeah and I think that's what's so fun about these conversations, is it brings awareness to these topics so that you can actually be an informed consumer. Basically, you get to be the person in charge.
[00:30:30.630] - Jan Courtney
These podcasts are so valuable. And look at the website for Body Positive Arizona and see what activities they're doing and what conversations they're having. We just have some great ones over the last few years, and every time we do them, our response is great. I just wish we could reach out and get more people involved because the more people that are aware, the more it's talked about, the more we can begin to normalize the differences in individuals and that they're all okay.
[00:31:08.800] - Ashley
Yeah. Diversity happens on purpose.
[00:31:12.110] - Jan Courtney
Yeah.
[00:31:12.780] - Ashley
I love it. I've loved this conversation. And I think it's like one little piece to so much like you're saying we have so many opportunities. Body Positive Arizona has so many of these conversations, but having them is the important part. And putting this out to students, I think, gets people thinking. So I love that. And I love you for saying all the things you said to help students feel empowered, that they can engage in behaviors, in healthy behaviors, engage in normal eating and support people or support themselves if they're noticing things that are problematic or getting in the way of them living like a really full life.
[00:31:53.190] - Ashley
Awesome. Well, at the end of each episode we ask our guests, just so they can learn a little bit about you, some just fun questions. So we have three questions today. If you're ready to go, we can ask you those.
[00:32:07.990] - Jan Courtney
Okay.
[00:32:08.640] - Ashley
Okay. So if you could only have three foods ever again, what would they be?
[00:32:16.710] - Jan Courtney
Okay, milk chocolate and lobster with fresh lemon. My third one, I'm going to cheat a little bit, and combine melons, but like really good cantaloupe and watermelon.
[00:32:37.280] - Ashley
Oh, Yum.
[00:32:39.110] - Ashley
Do you like honeydew, too? Or, are you partial to cantaloupe and watermelon?
[00:32:43.490] - Jan Courtney
I like honeydew, but sometimes it makes my throat scratchy, so I'm cautious about eating it. So if I really had to limit to only three, I'd do watermelon so I could eat it indefinitely.
[00:32:54.950] - Ashley
I love those. Those are good, and there's lots of variety and textures and stuff. That's very fun. Okay, breakfast or dinner?
[00:33:04.460] - Jan Courtney
Dinner.
[00:33:05.170] - Ashley
Dinner. Lobster. Lobster dinner.
[00:33:08.470] - Jan Courtney
Lobster dinner.
[00:33:10.730] - Ashley
And then speaking of dinner, if you could have dinner with three people, dead or alive, who would they be?
[00:33:18.350] - Jan Courtney
They would be Eckhart Tolle, who wrote The Power of Now, comedian George Carlin, who just kept me laughing all through College.
[00:33:31.670] - Ashley
Carlin with a K?
[00:33:33.310] - Jan Courtney
Carlin with a C.
[00:33:34.530] - Ashley
Oh, with a C.
[00:33:35.410] - Jan Courtney
Yeah.
[00:33:36.160] - Ashley
I'm just writing these down so I can Google them later and laugh too.
[00:33:39.200] - Jan Courtney
Yeah, his monologues were wonderful. And Terry Pratchett, he's an author, a late author.
[00:33:49.010] - Ashley
And what did Terry Pratchett write?
[00:33:51.230] - Jan Courtney
Terry Pratchett wrote a bunch of books, but he wrote a series called Discworld. He's a British author, and Discworld books were about a world that was inhabited by humans, as well as fantasy characters like trolls and goblins and whatever. And he was just a brilliant political observer, so lots of political commentary, and I just laugh out loud over and over again at his books. And sadly, he developed early onset Alzheimer's, which has always blew me away because it was such an incredible mind and to have that part of you start to go first is really sad. I think he passed away, I don't know, some time in the last five years.
[00:34:46.700] - Ashley
Okay.
[00:34:47.670] - Jan Courtney
But anyway, those are books that I will read over and over again.
[00:34:54.120] - Ashley
Oh, cool. I love that. What a fun dinner party of lots of good conversation and maybe some - well no, not maybe - tons of laughter too. What is the dinner table for, if not for love and laughter? Well, thank you so much for being here today, Jan. We so appreciate you and everything you do for our students here on campus.
[00:35:16.110] - Jan Courtney
Thanks, Ashley. Right back at you.
[00:35:18.690] - Ashley
Alright. Take care.
[00:35:20.151] - Jan Courtney
Thanks for having me.
[00:35:21.150] - Ashley
Thanks for coming on.