Episode 11: Gender Identity & Body Positivity Transcript
Welcome to Nutrition Navigators Podcast- Bringing Nutrition & Wellness To You
Together we learn from a variety of health professionals, about their stories and how they contribute to the world that is wellness.
My name Ashley Munro and I am one of the nutrition counselors at Campus Health and the advisor for Nutrition Navigators.
Today we have a bonus episode in partnership with Body Positive Arizona and also in celebration with Eating Disorder Awareness Week.
We are so looking forward to this week and spreading awareness about the harms of eating disorders and celebrating Body Positive Arizona Week!
Eating disorders are typically about altering one’s body to look a certain way and those who are experiencing gender dysphoria (the feeling of one’s identity not aligning with their body) which Martie talks with us about on today’s episode are at higher risk for developing an eating disorder.
Plus, when I was doing some research a 2019 survey and study found that “Sixty-four percent of 101 respondents disclosed intentional weight manipulation for purposes of aligning their body with gender identity.” (Avila, Golden, & Aye, 2019).
Today we will be talking to Martie about gender identity and how it relates to body positivity. Martie is a genderqueer lesbian therapist, actor, singer, and writer. They have provided training to hundreds of professional and lay persons, and their compassion, humor, and authenticity pave the way for not only learning, but personal growth. They provide counseling and consultation services at the University of Arizona’s Counseling and Psych Services, and have been in private practice since 2001, working with all clients, but most significantly those dealing with LBGTQIA issues, eating/body image issues, and trauma resolution, with a specialization in gender issues since 2005.
**And just a note that all the content on the podcast is for a general audience and is intended to be for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
Now, let’s welcome Martie to the show!
[00:00:00.060] - Ashley
Good morning, Martie, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us today. Can you maybe explain to our listeners who you are and what it is that you do at the University of Arizona?
[00:00:10.950] - Martie
Absolutely. My name is Marty Van der voort and I'm a therapist with Counseling and Psych Services CAPS. I've been working at the university for about 15 years, which tells you I love the job. I love working with college students because I never stayed in a job that long before. I get easily bored. I got my bachelors at Ohio University and that was when I came out as gay. That was one of my formative experiences of rebelling against my family. No, I'm just kidding. But I was finally free, when I got to college, to actually make those kinds of decisions and disclosures.
[00:01:02.250] - Ashley
That's interesting. You bring that up. My husband and I were talking about that folks seem to be able to come out maybe sooner than in the past, in the current times. I wondered, is that just because it's more normalized or there's a language given and they have this ability to be like, "oh, yeah", it happens in high school more than it used to happen.
[00:01:31.620] - Martie
Even in middle school.
[00:01:32.700] - Ashley
Yeah. And maybe they see the media kind of normalizing that space for them.
[00:01:39.840] - Martie
I think it's I think it's all of those factors. I think first off, there is more of a context in our culture. There's more of a frame of reference. I might see queer characters on TV and I'm older. And when I was coming out, I mean, I had kind of known what gay people were. But when I when I met some, in college and saw how they interacted with each other and went, "oh my God, that's that's me." That's my tribe. It was very freeing. But, now people have a context that they can look up stuff online, they can see it in the media. I think also in the upcoming generations, there is a much more free attitude about gender or sexuality. It's just like no big. Since it's more accepted culturally, you can experiment more freely. You know, like dating. It's kind of nice to be able to date both boys and girls so you can rule somebody in or out, you know, as opposed to having that not be an option and dreading your fantasies or something.
[00:02:53.970] - Ashley
I think that speaks to like humans. I'm interested in the human, not necessarily the label. I actually think that this generation, I'm older as well, but I think this generation too, has maybe more empathy and more open mindedness.
[00:03:14.160] - Martie
Absolutely. I'm definitely finding that.
[00:03:18.630] - Ashley
Cool. Well, thank you for that. Like, I think that's a good context for today, because today we're going to be talking about a question "does gender identity intersect with body positivity?" Part of the nutrition program at Campus Health is we have Body Positive Arizona, which is such a great program for exploring those concept. And I think even in body positive spaces, we often see cis women, cis-gendered, which is a person whose gender identity matches the gender they were assigned at birth, being the face of the movement, so to speak.
[00:03:57.210]
I think we might just want to shine a light on, on that and explore this this idea of gender and how that intersects with body positive, and why is representation so important in those types of things?
[00:04:13.800] - Martie
Absolutely,I came out as genderqueer a couple of years ago and I used them, they or she/her pronouns. So I want to also specify that because as a member of the umbrella transgender community, this is near and dear to me, since my specialities at work are LGBTQ persons, trauma resolution, and eating disorders. And so this is sort of a marriage of a lot of passion for me.
[00:04:48.210] - Ashley
Do you feel like people have a good understanding of the language in the LGBTQ space? I guess I used to work in a hospital and now I work in higher education. I work at the U of A, and I have my pronouns listed because I think it's helpful. I see my patients pronouns listed and I just find it so helpful and just it's so, I don't know, I just feel like it's coming from this place of just respecting humans for what how they identify themselves.
[00:05:18.330] - Ashley
Do you feel like people have good awareness of gender identity as a way to interact with other humans?
[00:05:25.860] - Martie
You know, I think more and more, like you said, that knowledge is becoming more common. But until or unless you are actually directly faced with it, I don't think,I mean, as a cis person, I don't think you have to question gender. It's just not a question.
[00:05:45.270] - Martie
I'm a woman, you know.
[00:05:47.790] - Ashley
Is that because you like, fit the binary.
[00:05:51.820] - Martie
You fit the binary world. Exactly. The male, female. If you're cis and you fit in those pretty, well, there's no reason to wonder about anybody else's experience until there's a reason to wonder about someone else's experience. Whether you're like trying to be more inclusive, working with gender diversity, as well as racial and cultural diversity, or you've come into contact with someone who is queer in some way. And I use queer as an umbrella term.
[00:06:22.320] - Martie
It's kind of like if if I'm right handed, I don't actually need to wonder how it is for you southpaws. But left handed people have their own issues in awarenesses. And it's actually a thing, I don't have to ever think about, unless I break my right hand and I have to use my non dominant hand. So, that's kind of how I think of it, is like it's just taken for granted, because I can take it for granted.Like any kind of privilege.
[00:06:56.910] - Ashley
Yeah. And that's the word that was coming to my brain. I was like, it sounds a lot like that.
[00:07:02.850] - Martie
I can be clear. Yes, cis gender privilege is the thing for sure. Same with hetero normative privilege.You know, if you're straight and Cis you kind of don't ever have to come out about that.
[00:07:20.730] - Ashley
We talk about that, as like thin privilege, that comes up too. It doesn't take away from anyone else's experience this word of privilege. But it reminds us that we do a lot of assuming because we don't necessarily have to think about something else, like a marginalized identity, I guess.
[00:07:40.360] - Martie
Exactly. And those marginalized identities, that oppression really carries a lot of stress, a lot of weight, a lot. I mean, that's why we see the numbers increasing for eating disordered folks in the queer community. We definitely statistically proven that.
[00:08:02.430] - Martie
Yeah, well, I think it's because, (laughing) I know the question, Ashley.
[00:08:10.020] - Ashley
(laughing) Marty can read my mind.
[00:08:12.750] - Martie
Well, particularly in queer communities, like with LGBTQ queer to just say, gay communities, especially with gay men. There's a thin ideal. We have language for weight and body types in the gay community. You know, a "twink" is a skinny little boy. Right. And that is a good thing to be unless you're a "bear" or a "gym bunny", just like straight culture and there's thin and there's gay. Have you heard that comment yet? Gay thin is ultra thin. I actually had a gay client say those exact words. Well there's thin and there's gay thin. And he did not identify himself as anorexic. I did. Diagnostically. So, yeah, there's a lot of thriving for the ideal. And I think because it's a sexuality preference where bodies come into play, how we think of bodies and how we perceive our bodies or how we perceive others perceiving us is is really key.
[00:09:32.620] - Martie
With trans folks. It can be even more complicated because my body shape certainly has some determinant on on how you perceive my gender. So when we talk about body image, body positivity in general for trans folks, there's a couple of factors. There's how I see myself, how I perceive myself, how I want to be. And there's also how you perceive me or how I believe you are perceiving me. Like me as a gender queer person.
[00:10:05.890] - Martie
I want to be read as rather androgynous. I don't I don't really want to way fem or way butch, way fem or way masc. I pay attention to how short is my hair. What kind of clothes am I wearing. That is gender presentation. My gender expression is rather androgynous and for non binary people that can be even more complicated. If I want to be perceived as non-binary, how does one do that? To me, androgyny is one way to go, but that doesn't that doesn't suit everybody.
[00:10:41.110] - Ashley
Right.
[00:10:41.560] - Martie
What if today I feel like wearing my ball gown and going way fem and tomorrow putting on my muscle shirt and whatnot.
[00:10:50.080] - Ashley
And the only thing that gets in the way of that being just something someone can do is what social gender roles like assume gender roles in our society?
[00:10:59.980] - Martie
What do you mean that gets in the way of like just dressing? However, I want to do that.
[00:11:07.630] - Martie
You're married. Yes?
[00:11:08.920] - Ashley
Yes.
[00:11:09.700] - Martie
So think of what if your husband one day wants to just wear a dress to work, what would happen? How would that be perceived as worse for guys? Women have been cross-dressing for several decades now.
[00:11:25.600] - Ashley
They used to call it like a tomboy, right?
[00:11:29.020] - Martie
Yeah, or boyish or mannish or. Yeah.
[00:11:32.230] - Ashley
Even have those jeans, those boyfriend jeans, they'll call them. I think they like market them as that. So just there's so many layers to it.I think it's just interesting.
[00:11:42.370] - Martie
Fascinating. Yeah.
[00:11:45.670] - Martie
With trans folks. I was just going to say, in terms of gender identity that you know the, the body positivity piece is really helpful in therapy. That's always what I'm talking about, is there's no right way to be trans, there's no right way to be the gender that you are. There's no right way to be you except be more you. But for someone who doesn't want to have breasts, can't afford or doesn't have access to surgery, they may diet to just lose body mass all over and stay thin or more androgynous looking body shape wise.Or conversely, I might eat a lot or put on a lot of extra weight to hide those secondary sex characteristics. You know, that trouble me within my gender identity.
[00:12:43.600] - Ashley
It's so challenging because people want to feel good in their bodies. But how do I feel good in a body I don't identify with, I guess. Right.
[00:12:51.670] - Martie
It's it's a conundrum right from the get go. Yeah.
[00:12:55.450] - Martie
If if what we're talking about is body satisfaction versus body dysphoria, you know, not not all trans people have body dysphoria.
[00:13:05.860] - Ashley
Can you explain what is for some of the listeners that maybe don't know.
[00:13:08.170] - Martie
Oh sure. Yeah.Dysphoria. Well like euphoria is feeling good. Yes. Dysphoria is feeling bad. To rather oversimplify things. But yeah, gender dysphoria means I'm unhappy in the gender that I was assigned and we say assigned at birth as opposed to your "real gender" or "your real sex" or whatever, because when I am assigned it at birth, I don't have to necessarily identify with it. Right?
[00:13:38.860] - Ashley
Right.
[00:13:39.430] - Martie
The dysphoria this sense of discomfort in my body is present all the time for, for instance, to go personally with this. I'm not happy with my breasts. I have never really enjoyed them. And it's getting to the point where I don't enjoy them sexually. I've never enjoyed the appearance. But even that they are on me, is not so great. And so that is what we would call chest dysphoria. So when someone refers to them, or the other day I got "sir"ed in the store and the person looked down and said "oh sorry."
[00:14:17.180] - Martie
And I was like, ah s*** because in that moment it was like, yeah, no, I got these things that actually make me woman.
[00:14:30.620] - Ashley
Highlighted it for you.
[00:14:31.840] - Martie
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, just as an example of how that dysphoria can can impact people.
[00:14:38.690] - Ashley
And I just think, if I am unhappy with a piece of my body, how then dressing my body, moving in my body, feeling my body, having any embodiment, maybe it's like I'm listening to how my body feels, even like hunger, fullness requires me being in my body. And that embodiment can be super uncomfortable for folks when their body image is more dysphoric.If that's a way to say it?
[00:15:06.300] - Martie
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great way to say it. And you got it. You got it. How do I how do I even want to tune into something that I may hate? Yeah.
[00:15:17.990] - Ashley
That's so hard.
[00:15:19.100] - Martie
Or at the very least I'm uncomfortable with.
[00:15:21.590] - Ashley
Yeah. And sometimes we will say things, like in body image we'll talk about, how can I hate my body less today to just be able to take care of it? So I think like it's a continuum. Right. We talk about, I think body image being this continuum and I have body love being on one far end and body hatred being on the other. And I think you move along the continuum. I think all of us move day to day.
[00:15:51.920] - Ashley
We all have bad body image days. But I think it sounds like it just is this extra layer. It's almost like when I feel some disconnection to the body, this earth suit that I'm in.
[00:16:04.910] - Martie
Yes, exactly.Yes. My skin bag, as I call it.
[00:16:11.690] - Ashley
What are some things you work with? I guess like if it's OK to ask, do you specifically have tips for folks to feel like they can even take one step out of body hatred and just do that respecting what I'm walking around with?
[00:16:28.200] - Martie
That's definitely part of the work, especially in a stage of transition. And I say transition. I mean, like I have transitioned socially in my appearance, my name. And so so anyone who is wanting to be perceived differently than they have been perceived even creates that dysphoria because they have to change how people see them. So trans people are pretty creative. We bind our chests. We may pack, as trans masc, I might pack, meaning have sort of a faux phallus so that I have a bulge.
[00:17:09.560] - Martie
Trans girls might tuck their privates away or enhanced pad their boobs or their butt. And so, I mean we have ways of trying to change our appearance just as cis people do. Do I have a push up bra or do I have a regular bra?, I mean it's just what humans do.
[00:17:34.100] - Ashley
Spanx, all those things.
[00:17:36.260] - Martie
Right, yeah. When when we have bodies we have body dissatisfaction and we try to make alterations.
[00:17:44.660] - Ashley
Yeah.
[00:17:44.810] - Martie
So yeah, we do have ways to sort of deal with some of those parts that are unwanted or the parts that we do want that we don't have. But in terms of sort of that in just you, when it's you in the mirror, how do you walk through your life? And that's I think what you're talking about is sort of how can you take one more step towards appreciation of the body that you have right now?
[00:18:11.600] - Martie
Some of it is like going with function versus form. You know what what are you grateful that your body can actually do? Yeah. What parts of your body can you receive pleasure from or can you rely on, you know. It's hard to hate everything about ones body. When you get down to it. like I have a toenail that is just rocking. It's like oh my nails are kind of brittle and breaking and stuff but I have this toenail damm it. I know. Just you know, I mean it's a strange thing because I'm obviously saying something. I know. But yeah, when it struck me I really liked that toenail and kind of giggled at myself.
[00:18:57.470] - Martie
But it can be like that.
[00:18:59.090] - Ashley
Yeah, I think we forget. To think about those things, maybe they're small, but they're still part of you. I had a really bad fall last week. I know I'm all bruised and battered. But what it made me grateful for was like my skin heals back pretty quickly, which I am grateful for.
[00:19:19.720] - Ashley
And I can't wait for the day where I can give my daughter a bath with my hands because I can't right now because they're all like broken up and sore. So, I think it's like such a small thing, but to be grateful for being able to like bread and batter the chicken I made last night without having to worry about, like getting my bandages wet. Like this is a very random example, but it's what is happening in the moment.
[00:19:46.720] - Ashley
And I think like a little grateful, things do sometimes serve a purpose in getting us out of that negative mindset.
[00:19:54.460] - Martie
And to be able to to intentionally refocus sometimes, I often prescribe an exercise at night, write down one thing you're grateful for or one thing you appreciate. And I have edited that to be body centered as well. For folks who really struggle with body image.
[00:20:17.530] - Ashley
I think there's like a like a couple of themes in the sense of like I maybe don't identify with the gender I was born into. So therefore, showing up in this body can be uncomfortable. Plus, there's societal pressures. If I align more with a masculine or feminine like those boxes have very specific societal images.Correct. And so how do I deal with my body image within those spaces? And then I have this like body positive movement where they're saying it's OK to be accepting of my body, but I don't see anyone necessarily that looks like me. Do you think that gets in the way?
[00:20:57.010] - Martie
Totally and totally. I mean, it's like a person of color not seeing any representations in media of themselves. It's like, well, those white people are just talking about themselves.
[00:21:12.070] - Martie
Same thing with gender representation or gender fluidity or any kind of gender diversity. It's coming step by step. But yeah, if I don't see or don't have a context for the normalization of whatever I'm going through, then I get to feel less than, othered, outside of, you know, and that's part of the minority oppression that I think fat people suffer, that the queer people suffer, that trans people suffer, that people of color suffer, you know, fully based on appearance. I mean, there's, of course, deeper cultural things going on, systemic racism and stuff. But, yeah, that that oppression. How do I deal with that? How do I cope with that on a day to day basis? So in the world of gender, a lot of us are working in a transitional stage. So sometimes, you know, if I just started hormones, for instance, I've just started testosterone. I haven't yet.But if I've just started testosterone, I don't look very male yet. And if my genes don't support the growth of much facial hair, I won't have that tell right away. As soon as a trans guy gets some facial hair, people stop looking elsewhere so that trans men have it. I think a little easier in terms of presentation. Trans women, testosterone has already done its damage. They have a low voice. They might be extra tall.So and that stuff doesn't change hormonally. But in that in-between state where I might be 'clocked', as we say it, as my you know, if I'm a trans woman and I'm still looking rather male or sounding rather male, there's a lot of discomfort and in fact, danger. I mean, let's face it, the trans women get murdered in this country, worldwide, but that is so uncomfortable. So part of what I work on with them is the temporary state of that, of some of that discomfort, Martie you know, where you're going to get top surgery as soon as you can afford it.So in the meantime, bind those breasts, but do it safely. I mean, we will get through this. You are in transition. You are changing. But even that I mean, someone who has gone through thousands of dollars of surgery and facial feminization and taking the voice courses or whatever may still get clocked at some point just because, you know, something old shows up on your documentation or whatever. I mean, it's still can be dangerous, and then that sets back in. I've had a lot of trans women who. Oh my God, I don't feel good today. My hair doesn't look right or whatever, because and it's because of that perception. I want to be perceived as truly femme. And if it's not feeling it inside, it's hard to trust that it'll be there on the outside looking in.
[00:24:27.230] - Ashley
Yeah. There there can be such a disconnect.
[00:24:30.240] - Martie
So in body positivity. I had a client, I had one session with a trans woman was one of my favorite stories to tell because this was several years ago before non-binary or androgynous, was so accepted or so normalized. And she came in and said, I don't know if I'm really trans, I don't want to wear a dress. I don't want to go, fem. I don't I don't like makeup. And so the whole session was "you be you girl", you do you the way you want to do it. There's no right way to be trans. I know a lot of trans folks who don't wear makeup or don't or dress kind of, you know, androgynous.
[00:25:21.850] - Ashley
Just like this cis folks to like there's a lot of cis women, who don't wear makeup.
[00:25:27.480] - Martie
Right, right. And if they're uncomfortable with it because they feel like they don't fit in, I would tell them the same thing. Right. There's no right way to be you. You be as comfortable as you can be and people will be OK with you if you're OK with you, because that's what you'll exude. This gal just needed permission to like not go fem and she's a great transwoman
[00:25:54.060] - Ashley
Power of permission, right? It's strong just to that.It's OK. And someone else validating that, right? Absolutely, yeah.
[00:26:05.610] - Ashley
Do you feel like there are specific places, students, specifically students, because those are our listeners can go to feel better in their bodies or get some questions asked or even on campus. Is there a place that folks can go?
[00:26:28.650] - Martie
There's lots of resources. This is actually a great campus to be queer on. In so many ways. We're always growing and changing. But the LGBTQ program affairs is actually a drop in center. Don't know that right now during COVID is a great time to be hanging out with people. But that's a place to just hang out in the lounge there. We have at CAPS we have several different kinds of support groups. We have a gender spectrum support group for folks who are questioning or in transition or working through gender issues. We have an LGBTQ support group for just anyone under the queer umbrella. Trans folks feel very comfortable going to that group as well. We have the CEDAR group for eating disorder or body image issues or just my relationship to food and my body. That's a that's a group that meets at CAPS. In the Tucson communities, there's SAGA, the Southern Arizona Gender Alliance, and they have support groups for folks who identify as trans women, trans men, trans non binary. So there's different kinds of support groups that specify the kind of person you want to be.
[00:27:49.950] - Ashley
What can someone expect when they go to a support group? Like what can someone expect when they walk in? Is it like do they have to talk?
[00:28:00.750] - Martie
You never, ever have to talk. You probably will get encouraged to introduce yourself and say hello. But that's all you ever have to do. I mean, I've had clients come to group their first time, and say ' I'm Jody. I just want to listen today.' And that's that. And the ease of the group, because we, you know, groups can be very funny. They can be very deep and intense. And usually there's some of all of that in a group. So the groups are welcoming. You can expect to be encouraged to share what's going on with you. If it's my group, I run the Gender Spectrum Group, I usually do some silly little checking in, like what's your superpower today or what animal or something like that, just to get us all on sort of a silly equal footing. And then I go around and we talk about what our challenges are. We talk about what our brags are, what's been going good, what do I want to give myself I put up for, you know, because we don't get much opportunity in our in our lives to, like, say, yeah, I'm all that. we need it. It's not it's not boasting. It's like celebrating. Exactly. So we try to make space for that and then whatever kind of support is needed, like, 'God, I came out to my mom and she didn't take it well.' So we talk about that and the general theme of coming out. Everybody shares their experience or their processes with it, that sort of thing. So there might be a topic. There might just be sort of a general discussion. But generally, I mean, and then some sort of closing just to sort of wrap it up a little.
[00:29:45.150] - Ashley
And those meet, would you say, every week or month?
[00:29:47.850] - Martie
Everywhere, every week. So there's three of those groups meet every week. I think both the CEDAR and the LGBTQ group are free. The gender group is ten bucks because that's more of a therapy group.
[00:30:02.400] - Ashley
So I'll be sure to link to to those so students can find the numbers and locations .And there all via Zoom right now?
[00:30:12.110] - Martie
Absolutely. Yeah, I can link times and all that.
[00:30:21.090] - Ashley
Well, Martie, is there anything that I didn't ask or that you you hope that we can share today? This is mainly about bringing some awareness and just kind of talking and leaning into these topics. Yeah. Anything that I didn't ask for that you wanted to say that you haven't yet.
[00:30:39.810] - Martie
Good question. Yes. If I could say anything to our listeners, I would say start with where you are, accepting what you can. Accepting and I you said body, love, body, hate, body tolerance, might be a step, body encouragement, body acceptance of what is. Some of our genes determine stuff that we just are not very happy with.But, that's going to be our life, you know. So better come to some peace with that. Yeah. So just start where you are and say yes to what you can about yourself.
[00:31:23.910] - Ashley
I love that. Say yes to what you can. That's a good mantra.
[00:31:28.560] - Martie
I like it too. I just came up with that.
[00:31:31.800] - Ashley
Write that down Martie, put it on a bumper sticker.
[00:31:37.200] - Ashley
Well, at the end of every episode, we ask our guests some just fun rapid fire questions so that the audience can learn a little bit more. You've been so gracious with what you've been willing to share with folks today, but these are just some some fun off the cuff questions. So are you ready for these? There's four of them.
[00:31:57.240] - Martie
All right. I am ready.
[00:31:59.010] - Ashley
If you could only have three foods ever again, what would they be?
[00:32:04.170] - Martie
Oh, celery. I love celery. So crunchy.
[00:32:12.410] - Martie
Hamburger, I love burgers and. Got to be sweet. Oh, tapioca pudding.
[00:32:21.830] - Ashley
I like the variety there, like I love something like cold and sweet. That's like a very good.
[00:32:30.530] - Martie
I just had lunch with you. Yes.
[00:32:33.770] - Ashley
And then if you had to choose breakfast or dinner.
[00:32:38.030] - Martie
Breakfast. Twenty four seven.
[00:32:42.080] - Ashley
Same. My mantra is put an egg on it!
[00:32:48.980] - Ashley
Crunchy tacos or soft tacos.
[00:32:51.470] - Martie
Crunchy. Messy. I like it.
[00:32:54.030] - Ashley
Yeah. Like I, I read. Sorry to follow up all of these today. I read, I read a New Year's resolution of someone was like eat more tacos. I was like, that's probably the best thing I've ever read.
[00:33:06.280] - Martie
Nice.They're very versatile.
[00:33:09.380] - Ashley
If you could have, people take this lots of different ways, but if you could have dinner with any three people dead or alive, who would they be?
[00:33:17.840] - Martie
I think. Eleanor Roosevelt would be one she's pretty brilliant, anybody in the Obama family
[00:33:29.080] - Ashley
Whoever is available.
[00:33:33.510] - Martie
And Joni Mitchell.
[00:33:36.300] - Ashley
Oh, so good. Yeah, that's who.
[00:33:39.630] - Martie
And then, of course, there's like, what would I say to them? I would probably just jaw drop, 'you talk. I'm listening, you know'. But but that's who I would. I would. Hang with.
[00:33:51.860] - Ashley
Great dinner party. Martie, I so appreciate you coming on the show today and hanging out with us and providing just resources and just freedom to be who we are and and being able to get to a space where we can walk around in these bodies and be tolerant of it.
[00:34:15.290] - Martie
Amen. Thanks for having me. This was fun.
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Until next time, be well Wildcats!